Looking for "mentor"

Rigging
1

Hi there,

I’m learning rigging/character setup now for a few months. I’m using turorials like the one of Jason and Aaron. I’m also using books. Now it’s kind a hard for me to go on and advance my skills without someone giving me tasks. I really have no problems to learn it by myself, but after i’ve finished a tutorial for example how to build a normal character rig…I’m like “hm what now, what could i do to practice in it and get used to it and who can check my work done”. You know what i meen? I know there are sites like riggingdojo, and yes I’m cosidering it. But how did you guys learn to rig and how did you practice it as a beginner or even advanced rigger?

So in short:
I sure can learn things by myself, my problem is to practice what I learn.

Thanks for any kind of advice.

2

Well the best thing to do is, as you say just practice, but if you’re not in a production situation then I guess it’s hard to have animators feedback and moan at you or break things… and trust me they do!

Personnally I started rigging then pipelines out of frustration that there was knowbody else in the studio sending me nice clean rigs, so like you, I learnt off the likes of Jason and just trawling forums. You soon figure out what works and what doesn’t. But if you want people to give you feedback then just post up, there’s plenty of willing folk on here or cgTalk to let you know if you’re on the right lines or not.

Mark

3

It’s a hard question for me to answer, I got into rigging because others I’ve worked with weren’t so comfortable with it. I found that I learned the most from rigging when I started working on something other than bipedal human-like meshes. Good practice (IMO) can be found with working on birds/wings/feathers and quadrupeds as I got more comfortable with linking, constraints and wiring with those. With that being said, I’ve been working in 3ds Max for awhile and don’t have too much into Maya.

As Mark has stated there are many people willing to review and give feedback if you don’t currently work with any animators.

4

Be your own customer.

If you’re a rigger - use your own rigs. Learn to animate. If you’re writing modeling tools - learn to model. If you’re a shader writer, learn to create art and build your own environments/characters.

If your work isn’t quite there, when you use it you’ll feel the pain and it will help you to better understand how your decisions affect your customers.

Using the things you create is the best way to drive new requirements and validate the usefulness of existing features.

Of course, nothing replaces working within a team - after all everyone is different, and will make different, sometimes conflicting demands on your work. But if you’re trying to break into the industry the best advice I can give you is to be your own customer.

5

[QUOTE=macaronikazoo;9708]But if you’re trying to break into the industry the best advice I can give you is to be your own customer.[/QUOTE]

Or as we say at Microsoft, “Eat your own dogfood”. I was going suggest the same thing, along the way you’ll actually pick up some of that production knowledge that we say technical artists should have. The best way to learn the artist mindset is to MAKE ART. Much like how writing unit tests is a great way to expose design flaws in your APIs, building content against your own tools is a great way to learn how to develop art tools that an artist would actually use.

6

Rigging is a blend or artistic and technical talent. Like any form of art you need practice and the passion to explore and troubleshoot. For me, I had no option or whatsoever to learn rigging in my country (It’s very new here). I even didn’t know what rigging means at that time. I had real difficulty understanding what joints, local rotation axis … i use to search hours for the menu bar tools! Anyways, the biggest resource that you can get is all there online. You can share your ideas, rigs and post queries and yes you will be given good support. The CG community is a bundle of resource and learning. Yes, you will learn even better if you are in a production environment, all those animators pushing you and commenting and directors on top of you. But, out of all these the key to learning lies in you. Richard William the Lord of animation says “I have just learned to hold a pen”. Now then, what have we learn!? Anyways, keep your self enthusiasm alive … sharing is another form of learning, you can check out for blogs and website of people in the industry … lot of them share a whole bunch of ideas, tips and tricks and more than willing to guide you if you are in need. Best Wishes :):

7

Thanks for all the great Infos and advices.
It’s just very difficult at the beginning becuase in every tutorial (every tut i know) and also books, they go straight forward into bipedal rigging, and often i’m there like “ok it works, but… why?” :).
It would be nice if there would be some tutorials out there to get used to how rigs work before going straight into bipedal rigging. Are there any? Not for absolute beginners just other examples of very simple explained rig functions.
And could you name me some resources with none-bipedal rig tutorials? Like RyanT said I’m sure non-bipedal tutorials (cars, birds, tires etc…) are a very good way to understand how things work before going for bipedal rigs. I know DigitalTutors have, but i’ve heard that they don’t explain in detail why something works, just how it works.

Thanks a lot.

8

The best advice I can give you is to learn your basics ( I highly suggest “MEL scripting a character rig by Chris Maraffi”) and then join a mod. There are a TON of people online making video games, just join a team for free. This will a) give you work experience, b) allow interactive practice, and c) clarify new paths of study.

9

[QUOTE=lyko;9729]Thanks for all the great Infos and advices.
It’s just very difficult at the beginning becuase in every tutorial (every tut i know) and also books, they go straight forward into bipedal rigging, and often i’m there like “ok it works, but… why?” :).
It would be nice if there would be some tutorials out there to get used to how rigs work before going straight into bipedal rigging. Are there any? Not for absolute beginners just other examples of very simple explained rig functions.
And could you name me some resources with none-bipedal rig tutorials? Like RyanT said I’m sure non-bipedal tutorials (cars, birds, tires etc…) are a very good way to understand how things work before going for bipedal rigs. I know DigitalTutors have, but i’ve heard that they don’t explain in detail why something works, just how it works.

Thanks a lot.[/QUOTE]

I suggest you forget about (written/short) tutorials. You cannot rely in them because simply there is not a tutorial for every case. Most of them explain a particular solution for a particular problem, and you’ll get in troubles when trying to apply that to a different issue. It’s hard to find good documentation on intermediate to advanced levels, I think.

On the other hand, there are several documents that not only explain you ‘how’ but also explain you ‘why’. For example, I had the opportunity to watch a couple of lessons of ‘Animator Friendly Rigging’ series by Jason Schleifer and they looked amazing because of this.

There’s a web called Animation Buffet:

http://animationbuffet.blogspot.com/

… packed with dozens of free rigs for Maya. Download them, play with them, break them, study how they behave. When you already know the basics this is for me one of the best ways to learn. You can call it ‘reverse engineeiring’. The fact is that it is fun to learn how things work, and step by step you’ll be able to acquire new ways to build things, and with these simple bits you’ll find your own way to combine them to do whatever you want.

You can do the same. Apart from you being your own client (you are always the first one that needs to be satisfied with your work) you can give your rigs to other people so they can test them and tell you how to improve them.

10

[QUOTE=ikerCLoN;9737]I suggest you forget about (written/short) tutorials. You cannot rely in them because simply there is not a tutorial for every case. Most of them explain a particular solution for a particular problem, and you’ll get in troubles when trying to apply that to a different issue. It’s hard to find good documentation on intermediate to advanced levels, I think.[/QUOTE]

Agreed but I also think it’d be nice to have more ‘scholarly’ writing about tech art subjects (not that that’s what the OP is asking for, just saying). About the theory and the why. It is hard to find that for technical resources in general. Technical books tend to be technical, and papers tend to be more about the ‘how’ (I often enjoy the foreward, history, and intro more than the rest of the paper). I imagine as we continue to have more TA’s, more interest in tech art, and more formalization of our discipline, we’ll have some progress in this area.

11

[QUOTE=Rob Galanakis;9739]Agreed but I also think it’d be nice to have more ‘scholarly’ writing about tech art subjects (not that that’s what the OP is asking for, just saying). About the theory and the why.[/QUOTE]

I’ll second this. Nowadays when I’m listening to a paper or presentation, I’m more interested in the story behind it. Technical details are cool, but at the end of the day you’ll probably figure those out anyway. Like Rob says, the interesting thing is why you reached that conclusion, or perhaps even more interesting why you DIDN’T reach the same conclusion, given how small a sandbox techart actually is. Something to keep in mind for TA Bootcamp next year, i suppose.

12

I agree with you Rob and djTom. It would be a very big advantage to the learning process for “newcomers” like me. Also it would make learning much easier without the need to research all the things teached in tutorials or similar for the “why did he do it this way and not the other way”. For example, i just did a few lessons of the Jason Schleifers and the Fahrenheit tutorials. They’re both awesome, no question, now I’m able to build an IK Spline rig and a Ribbon Spine. But when to use which method and why…
No need to answer this question, just tried to point it out.

Cheers!

13

[QUOTE=lyko;9744]I agree with you Rob and djTom. It would be a very big advantage to the learning process for “newcomers” like me. Also it would make learning much easier without the need to research all the things teached in tutorials or similar for the “why did he do it this way and not the other way”. For example, i just did a few lessons of the Jason Schleifers and the Fahrenheit tutorials. They’re both awesome, no question, now I’m able to build an IK Spline rig and a Ribbon Spine. But when to use which method and why…
No need to answer this question, just tried to point it out.

Cheers![/QUOTE]

This is exactly the place where I’m stuck now. I am scripting the full body rigg procedures and I need to start the spine script. It can be done as the Farenheith way (the ribbon spine) or the Jason Schleifers way.

Both are excelent wich one should I choose as it will be a pain to script both just to figure one is better than the other in term of average animators opinion.

At same time I am trying to figure out wich is the best method to perform the roll bones for the arms and legs. Should I use the ribbon method that looks like a complete solution as it includes stretch, elbow bend, etc?.

By the moment there are plenty of tutorials out there… many of them will tell you same thing… others…just the fewer of them will tell you the coolest stuffs and tricks… but I still cannot find yet the definitive bible telling you about the production proven methods to solve all in the best way from the toe to the head of a biped including the facial rig.

Books are good ways to teach but to learn rigging and with the time we have we are in need of video tutorials where you can rewind if you miss something and return really quick.

filmico.

14

That’s the hard and FUN part about rigging - there’s no definitive ‘best’ way to rig something. There are lots of solutions and part of the learning process is trying out one way which then doesn’t work and then trying multiple alternatives until you’ve found one that works for this particular task.

Practice makes perfect and eventually you’ll get to the point where you have something you want to achieve and because of your library of experience you can say with confidence which is the most appropriate solution. More often than not you’ll get it right or close, but you’ll have more confidence of what is a complete blind alley!

15

[QUOTE=MattRennie;17521]That’s the hard and FUN part about rigging - there’s no definitive ‘best’ way to rig something. There are lots of solutions and part of the learning process is trying out one way which then doesn’t work and then trying multiple alternatives until you’ve found one that works for this particular task.

Practice makes perfect and eventually you’ll get to the point where you have something you want to achieve and because of your library of experience you can say with confidence which is the most appropriate solution. More often than not you’ll get it right or close, but you’ll have more confidence of what is a complete blind alley![/QUOTE]

Cheers for your coments. :wink:

16

This is from a long time ago ( 2006?). It was an attempt to lay the groundwork for an overview of how rigging works, independent of application specific details. It’s just an old PPT so much of the ‘theory’ may be something you’ll have to infer, but maybe it’ll be useful.

http://www.giantbite.com/Steve/BP/Bp.html

I don’t know how handy it will be until you’re familiar with the vocabulary.

17

Yes, I was about to post this and then well, The “MAN” posted it, the rigging cookbook from Steve is great.

All the comments are right on and if you are looking for a on-demand mentor Suchan is great, he did a mini session with us at Rigging Dojo and did a great job at it.

Posting here is good but don’t be generic in your requests and don’t ignore the feedback you get… also there isn’t a single way to do something, sometimes it is just a diffrent way.

I am proud of Rigigng Dojo and the community we have built and I would be happy to have you train with us when you are ready. But we do free QA sessions through out the year and try and post answers to questions that get posted (when they are specific and detailed) if they get posted on our Facebook wall. I really like our interviews have some more great interviews coming soon along.
Our very active Vimeo channel for cool stuff we find that offers either direct tutorials or inspiring cool rig demos is great to watch because it gives you examples to compare to your work and take notes from. Tutorials and Cool stuff we like on Vimeo and for clear explanations of what is going on Zeiths blog is great http://williework.blogspot.com/

The why and when do you use a technique depends on what you are rigging, what you know how to use well and what doesn’t cause animators to send you angry emails.

I think most of the old guys:) all got in to rigging because no one else was going do make things better, our goals were to just make rigs that worked better to animate with. I learned by looking at other rigs and trying to animate them first, then I would look at what was under the hood and then the main source Jason, Erick , Paul, Joe etc… but I didn’t use their work to make better rigs in Maya, I spent a great deal of time translating it to Max and in that I had to learn what they were doing and not just follow the step by step.

Other training to look into that I think would be of value- for those starting out.

http://www.animationrigs.com/register.asp?navaction=skills just videos to watch not bad but I think you can learn most of what you need from the links provided all ready but
they have an open enrollment for a more class like structure and have been around a long time.

http://www.animationrigs.com/register.asp?navaction=skillsclass

There are others as well but non that fit what you are looking for in your request (you can review them of course if you haven’t yet Animschool, Td-u, iAnimate games rig workshop )

Ok, you have enough to keep you busy for a solid few weeks. Hope it helps.

18

[QUOTE=bclark;17533]Yes, I was about to post this and then well, The “MAN” posted it, the rigging cookbook from Steve is great.

All the comments are right on and if you are looking for a on-demand mentor Suchan is great, he did a mini session with us at Rigging Dojo and did a great job at it.

Posting here is good but don’t be generic in your requests and don’t ignore the feedback you get… also there isn’t a single way to do something, sometimes it is just a diffrent way.

I am proud of Rigigng Dojo and the community we have built and I would be happy to have you train with us when you are ready. But we do free QA sessions through out the year and try and post answers to questions that get posted (when they are specific and detailed) if they get posted on our Facebook wall. I really like our interviews have some more great interviews coming soon along.
Our very active Vimeo channel for cool stuff we find that offers either direct tutorials or inspiring cool rig demos is great to watch because it gives you examples to compare to your work and take notes from. Tutorials and Cool stuff we like on Vimeo and for clear explanations of what is going on Zeiths blog is great http://williework.blogspot.com/

The why and when do you use a technique depends on what you are rigging, what you know how to use well and what doesn’t cause animators to send you angry emails.

I think most of the old guys:) all got in to rigging because no one else was going do make things better, our goals were to just make rigs that worked better to animate with. I learned by looking at other rigs and trying to animate them first, then I would look at what was under the hood and then the main source Jason, Erick , Paul, Joe etc… but I didn’t use their work to make better rigs in Maya, I spent a great deal of time translating it to Max and in that I had to learn what they were doing and not just follow the step by step.

Other training to look into that I think would be of value- for those starting out.

http://www.animationrigs.com/register.asp?navaction=skills just videos to watch not bad but I think you can learn most of what you need from the links provided all ready but
they have an open enrollment for a more class like structure and have been around a long time.

http://www.animationrigs.com/register.asp?navaction=skillsclass

There are others as well but non that fit what you are looking for in your request (you can review them of course if you haven’t yet Animschool, Td-u, iAnimate games rig workshop )

Ok, you have enough to keep you busy for a solid few weeks. Hope it helps.[/QUOTE]

Dear Theodox and bclark,

The information you’ve posted is invaluable. both of you have compiled many things and from different angles to find solutions.

I forgot to mention that I am in the riging field since 2004 and in the vfx industry since 1998, and seams I will never surrender to the process of reaching for new kwnowledge.

In all that time I had riged arround 70 different creatures and uncontable bipeds, but the transfer from lightwave to maya almost killed me.

Maya is endless as powerful… you can do what ever you imagine there but the price you must to pay is to travel deep inside one of the most intricated apps I’ve ever seen.

The industry is always asking for people wih more and more knowledge and some times is tricky not to loose the train.

Once I’ve finished my new Demo reel to apply for a new position out there I will try to save some founds to go for the riging dojo and the python course of CGTalk.

I hope to finish my reel update really soon. If you have some time look at my old demo to give me a better replay once the new version appear.

Demo Reel (2010) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-sjwfhVsWo
LinKedin Profile http://ar.linkedin.com/pub/gerardo-sebastian-verrone/b/509/834

cheers…

Gerardo.

19

Great looking work Gerardo, I think the hardest part would be dealing with the skinning tools and the maya “joint” vs the lightwave bone type system and some of the other issues with trying to edit all ready rigged models, where other apps have easy “modes” to do this, you have to hack at the Maya rigs.

Good luck with your adventures in Maya, most of your rigging hook up know how should work fine in Maya.